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Middle East peace

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Started by Sabotage in Chit-Chat

Apologies for the lateness, but I’ve been poorly. Aaah.

Here goes then…

Proposed Solution to the Middle East Conflict

Israel and the other states and/or peoples in the Middle East have been in a virtually perpetual state of war since Israel came into being soon after WW2. The reasons for Israel’s creation in the first place is controversial for some, and a reason in itself for hostility. I believe that the removal of Israel as a state as part of a solution is a complete non-starter.
The plain simple reason for this conflict is that Israel and its neighbours hate each other. It’s as simple as that. They hate each other for religious and political reasons, which are too obvious to go into here, plus the fighting that has gone on between them over the past 50 years or so has added to the problem. I believe that they will continue to hate each other and fight in various forms for the rest of time. It will never end. Maybe. I believe that the present tensions would be eased by the following solutions. This in time may lead to a long term easing of the situation as a whole, and maybe even long term peace.

It seems to me that Israel can do pretty much what it wants in the Middle East. Reasons for this are mainly twofold.
A) Israel is supported by the US.
B) Israel believes that it was given carte blanch to act as it sees fit in all areas, due to the atrocities committed against Jews by the Third Reich. Israel must be told that it doesn’t have the right to do what it wants, however, whenever, and against whoever.
Furthermore, anyone who criticises Israel in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER is considered an anti-semite, and their opinion branded racist and worthless. I will be for this article.

It therefore seems to me that…
1/ Israel must adopt a more reasonable approach to Middle East matters. It must also recognise the Palestinians right to a country of their own.
2/ The Arab states in the region must recognise Israel’s right to exist.
3/ A nation called Palestine is established in the West Bank area. The Gaza strip is formally recognised as part of Egypt and Israelis are removed. Palestinians here can either become Egyptians or relocate to the West Bank.
4/ ALL forms of conflict/fighting and terrorism from all parties must end. The UN enforces this.
5/ All Palestinians are forced to move from Israel to Palestine, and all Israelis are removed from Palestine and relocated to Israel.
They can’t live together, so they are made to live apart.
Simple points they may seem, but they MUST happen. Otherwise the conflict will go on for EVER.
As this is extremely unlikely to happen from either party voluntarily, due to the deep rooted hatreds in the whole region, the only solution is to MAKE Israel and the Arab states accept these points.

Jerusalem.
This city is claimed by both Israel and the Palestinians.
Neither Israel, Palestine or any other state is to have sovereignty of Jerusalem.
The city itself is treated in a similar fashion to the Vatican City in Rome, which Italy has no jurisdiction over. A border is drawn around Jerusalem which includes the whole city and a 5 mile border radius or thereabouts. Include the airport too. Enough infrastructure to be a workable city-state in other words.
This new state is administered by the UN directly. Israelis and Palestinians may work, live and play here, but Jerusalem’s sovereignty belongs to the UN.
Neither Israel, Palestine or any other state will gain control of Jerusalem EVER AGAIN.

These may seem like blasé solutions to a very complex and age old problem, but I sincerely believe that all other solutions will continue to fail because they don’t address the hate in this region, and the intransigence of the parties involved. They must be told that their behaviour is unacceptable by the whole world. The whole world could then implement these solutions.
I believe they would work. As far as I know, they have never been tried. All solutions to date have pussyfooted around the problems. This doesn’t.

cheers
sabotage

Posted on Wed, 4 December 2002 at 08:44

You’re viewing replies 1–19 of 19 by 6 people

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#1

trigger wrote:

Why are the Palestinian suicide bombers called terrorists? What about the hundrends of innocent men, women and children that the Israelis have killed? These soldiers are not terrorists just because they wear a uniform? I believe that the Palestinians have a right to fight back and since they do not have any missiles, tanks, F-16’s, Apache’s or nuclear weapons like Israel does, they fight with the only weapon they have, their body.
There will be no peace as long as Palestine does not belong to Palestinians.

Posted on Thu, 5 December 2002 at 20:39

#2

Nitro (Erdem Capar) wrote:

I believe that the main problem is, the people livingin Arabic Peninsula, don’t realize the importance of the place they’re living. They have most of the petrol and if they unite all of them will be richer; but countries in G-8 don’t want them tu unite, they want them in small countries so they can be kept under control. So, G-8 always provocates people in Arabic Peninsula, as Arabs and Israelis are not wise enough, they are kept under control, like my country…

Posted on Fri, 6 December 2002 at 08:48

#3

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Okay, going to play devil’s advocaat here to try and destruction-test your plan, and to smell faintly of eggs…

1) Your point about being branded an anti-semite is unfortunately all too true - how are you going to convince those making the accusations that you aren’t one? Probably the Israeli people would see your point of view, but it’s hard to talk to them when their leaders seem so keen to retain power by whipping up a state of hysteria.

2) How are the UN going to enforce it all? The problems regarding anti-terrorism are all too well documented, and who would provide the troops anyway? Can’t see the US or EU doing so, and can’t see both sides agreeing on anyone that would be an impartial party, blue hats or not.

Operational and practical issues aside, I think I agree pretty much with you, and your idea re Jerusalem seems somewhat ingenius.

Posted on Mon, 9 December 2002 at 14:10

#4

Christian wrote:

Title: interesting topic..

Quote (author unknown):

It therefore seems to me that…
1/ Israel must adopt a more reasonable approach to Middle East matters. It must also recognise the Palestinians right to a country of their own.

Agreed.

Quote (author unknown):

2/ The Arab states in the region must recognise Israel’s right to exist..

Agreed.

Quote (author unknown):

3/ A nation called Palestine is established in the West Bank area.” .

This might look a bit like a reward for terrorism. Depends on the situation. It`s definetly to think about.

Quote (author unknown):

The Gaza strip is formally recognised as part of Egypt and Israelis are removed. Palestinians here can either become Egyptians or relocate to the West Bank.

They become Egyptians? Sounds more unrealistic than 1 and 2.

Quote (author unknown):

4/ ALL forms of conflict/fighting and terrorism from all parties must end. The UN enforces this..

I don`t think the UN will help much. Look at Lebanon.

Quote (author unknown):

5/ All Palestinians are forced to move from Israel to Palestine, and all Israelis are removed from Palestine and relocated to Israel.

Does “Palestinians”, mean all the Arab Population in Israel here? That would be 17-20% of the whole Population. Forcefully kicked out? Impossible.

I agree that the Settlements in the West Bank should be removed. (I believe a majority of Israelis would support that in exchange for peace).

Quote (author unknown):

They can’t live together, so they are made to live apart.
Simple points they may seem, but they MUST happen. Otherwise the conflict will go on for EVER.

I believe the conflict will go on even with a Palestinan state established, because the goal off certain groups will remain the same, the “liberation of historical Palestine”. If the palestinian population doesn`t back them anymore, it will be a great help though.

The idea for Jerusalem sounds nice, and I also think that Israel as well the arab states need to work this out. After all, terror groups like Hamas are based in countries like Iran or Syria to some extent.

Quote (author unknown):

Why are the Palestinian suicide bombers called terrorists? [/quote)

Because they mostly target civilians.

Quote (author unknown):

What about the hundrends of innocent men, women and children that the Israelis have killed? These soldiers are not terrorists just because they wear a uniform?

Yes, they are not, they`re part of an army, with certain rules (that sometimes are broken as it seems..”collateral damage” can never be prevented in every case, especially in urban areas when the enemy uses human shields). However, one would have to prove that the army aims at civillians to equalize their actions with that of the terrorists.

Quote (author unknown):

I believe that the Palestinians have a right to fight back

Yes they have, just not at civillians.

Quote (author unknown):

and since they do not have any missiles, tanks, F-16’s, Apache’s or nuclear weapons like Israel does, they fight with the only weapon they have, their body.

they also have guns, rockets, bombs, mortars. whatever. I believe you quote that Hamas guy (sheik Yassin?) here. Just because they`re “weak” is not an excuse to allow them going into a discotheque and kill the guests. Hisbollah for example did mostly target the Israeli Army with their attacks, although they`re also involved in terroristic actions to my knowledge. The line between “Freedom Fighter” and “Terrorist” needs to be clear in every case.

Quote (author unknown):

There will be no peace as long as Palestine does not belong to Palestinians.

That`s right, but some Palestinans like to think “Israel” is “Palestine”. Some Polls show that a majority of the population supports this goal.

Posted on Mon, 9 December 2002 at 16:34

#5

Christian wrote:

Title: I forgot something..

the conflict might not go on forever…because the birth rates of Israel Arabs and palestinans are much higher than that of the jewish population. Maybe one day Israel will really be taken over by arabs (after all, they`re allowed to vote). We`ll talk in a few centuries about that ;).

Posted on Mon, 9 December 2002 at 16:43

#6

trigger wrote:

to christian:

the casualties among the palestinian civilians are much much bigger. The Israelis are destroying their houses, they are restricting their freedom and they are taking over the land in which the Palestinians have lived for hundrends of years. Of course, you don’t get to see much of that on CNN or the majority of the western media. The issue of terrorism is an act of desperation and it is the last mean to which (some) Palestinians have resorted. To me, EVERYONE who kills unarmed people on purpose is a terrorist. Especially terrorists in uniform.

Posted on Mon, 9 December 2002 at 22:58

#7

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Dead’s dead. I don’t think mothers grieve any more or less depending on whether the man who shot them had a uniform or not.

As far as centuries-old claims go, it’s a moot point - the Israelis have an equally extensive heritage there, but that shouldn’t necessarily trigger political decisions (much though many people would like it too). If it did, then the logical extension would be to give America and Australia back to those that have been there for years.

Mass repatriation would probably lead to the kind of violence that was seen when India and Pakistan split, but hopefully the result would be more peaceful,

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 08:41

#8

Sabotage wrote:

I said…
5/ All Palestinians are forced to move from Israel to Palestine, and all Israelis are removed from Palestine and relocated to Israel.

You said…
Does “Palestinians”, mean all the Arab Population in Israel here? That would be 17-20% of the whole Population. Forcefully kicked out? Impossible.

Is this impossible? No. Eastern Germany after WW2 was handed over to Poland (Prussia and so on). All Germans were removed. At the same time (ahem) Russia took eastern Poland, but the point is that this has worked. Bit unfair you may think, but there you go.

Has anyone got Kofi Anan’s e-mail. We should send him this whole thread. :-)

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 09:09

#9

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Sabotage wrote:

Has anyone got Kofi Anan’s e-mail. We should send him this whole thread. :-)

I was wondering about something along those lines myself. Saw Michael Moore on Saturday, and he had a few points on the subject (mainly tell all the Palestinians to sit down and do nothing. Some will be killed, but overall they’ll achieve their (stated) aims quicker by doing a Gandhi than by blowing stuff up. Mind you, he looked at little takenaback (1 word? 2?) when a guy dressed up as Bin Laden started heckling him.

Still think that the main sticking point is how do you sell it to the locals though - any thoughts?

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 09:43

#10

Sabotage wrote:

Selling it is the hard part for sure. Like any of the so-called “peace plans” of recentish times. Cos I work in IT (yawn) I would explain it like I do everything else. Longwindedly and take everything to it’s extreme conclusion.
1/ Start off with a diagram of the current state of affairs.
2/ Draw what will happen if things stay as they are. In other words, the same picture but with a different date.
3/ Point out each aspect in turn, and show the result.

Because I work with “reasonable” people, this is how I see stuff. I don’t know if they would, so it would be very difficult.

But if I had the power, I would MAKE them sit down in a room with a supply of tea and sandwiches (biscuits if they’re nice) and say, “OK guys. We’re coming out of here with peace. Peace is this (define peace). Talk. Here’s a flip chart, dry-wipe board and what not. Get on with it. You are NOT coming out until I’m happy.”

If only eh…

One thing I haven’t mentioned is that my position on the State/Religion relationship is there shouldn’t be one.
In other words Israel shouldn’t be Jewish. Nor Arab states primarily Muslim. I know that the western world is primarily a RC/Protestant mix, but our countries aren’t the “Anglican Republic of England” and such like. I think that would be wrong. Having said that, it seems that the middle east countries want to have a State/Religion relationship so let them. I think it would be better if there wasn’t but that is never going to happen in a squillion years.
cheers

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 10:52

#11

opalmantra wrote:

Bomb the whole region.

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 11:01

#12

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

opalmantra wrote:

Bomb the whole region.

Wouldn’t that mean that we got Jewish extremists as well as muslim ones? Can just see them wrestling each other for the plane controls…

I think the only way to get people to listen would be to have economic sanctions against Israel (because their ‘war’ effort is paid for through foreign sales I believe) and bribe the Palestinians (because they’ve got nothing we can threaten sanctions against). Of course, you then get the 2 sides complaining that they’re being treated differently and squabbling…

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 11:13

#13

opalmantra wrote:

I honoustly think there’s no solution to this. They’ve been fighting ever since. Maybe in a couple of centuries. When religion has died or something.

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 14:08

#14

Christian wrote:

to trigger and Citizen Erased:
Ah no, I understand your view, I know that the death toll is much higher on the palestian side and it doesn`t matter for a mother if her child was killed by a suicide bomber or a Israeli Soldier. I have no sympathy for Sharon and heavy-handed Military Tactics or the destruction of houses, but I also totally reject suicide-bombings in the way they mostly are executed. Let`s leave it at that.

to Sabotage:

Yeah, population transfers are possible, but your example can hardly apply, because the germans lost a war and were kicked out partly because they had committed horrible crimes, it was revenge and the context was different. Israel has not lost a war and nobody will force them out of anywhere. I think Israeli extreme right wing politicans come up with such ideas for the transfer of people of the other side sometimes. It could work, but it´s a crime to force thousands of people to leave their land just because someone thinks it will bring peace. It would be a breach of international law, and the UN enforcing it would be -um, let`s say ironic.

Maybe the US should pressure Israel more, especially to stop the building of new settlements and such, that would be a help I could imagine. Won`t probably happen as long as Bush is there.

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 15:49

#15

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Christian wrote:

to trigger and Citizen Erased:
Ah no, I understand your view, I know that the death toll is much higher on the palestian side and it doesn`t matter for a mother if her child was killed by a suicide bomber or a Israeli Soldier. I have no sympathy for Sharon and heavy-handed Military Tactics or the destruction of houses, but I also totally reject suicide-bombings in the way they mostly are executed. Let`s leave it at that.

Maybe the US should pressure Israel more, especially to stop the building of new settlements and such, that would be a help I could imagine. Won`t probably happen as long as Bush is there.

Okay, agreed, no-one’s going get anywhere arguing over a point like that, and I think we’re coming from (or at least going to) the same place anyway.

I think that you’re right in identifying America as able to exert pressure and as reluctant to do so for obvious, if not necessarily noble, reasons.

And whilst it’s slightly off-topic, what do people think about the UK becoming the Son-of-Star-Wars missle base for Dubya?

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 16:05

#16

Sabotage wrote:

Quote (author unknown):

[i]It could work, but it´s a crime to force thousands of people to leave their land just because someone thinks it will bring peace. It would be a breach of international law, and the UN enforcing it would be -um, let`s say ironic.

Maybe the US should pressure Israel more, especially to stop the building of new settlements and such, that would be a help I could imagine. Won`t probably happen as long as Bush is there.

I agree that it’s extreme to remove people from their homes, and I think that Poland taking bits of Germany was wrong.
Could that ever be undone? Yes
Should it be? Damn hard to answer that one.
Should Israelis and Palestinians be removed so that we can enforce peace? I obviously think so else I wouldn’t have put it forward.
But something has got to give, otherwise I honestly see it going on for ever.
Israel was created in that area by Britain basically. We owned that region, and the Jewish people wanted a homeland. Whether that’s right or wrong (I think it wrong…see my comment on State/Religion earlier)…I think that particular decision is impossible to undo.
For that reason alone, something has to give from both sides.

I also agree with you that the UN couldn’t exactly force anything because it’s so damn weak (is that what you meant?). Afraid to make decisions in case they upset people I think.

The US is key to all this unfortunately, and it needs to stop being such an Israeli boot lick.

By the way, this is such a sensible discussion, and I’m sure it will stay this way. Which is good. Perhaps we could chair any future peace talks between us…with Kofi of course.

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 16:50

#17

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Sabotage wrote:

By the way, this is such a sensible discussion, and I’m sure it will stay this way. Which is good. Perhaps we could chair any future peace talks between us…with Kofi of course.

Damn, and I just thought of some silly comments as well.

Re the UN, it has little funding of it’s own for peace-keeping missions, and the bill is usually met by whoever sends in the troops, therefore the trouble you’d have here would be finding countries that could afford to send peacekeepers and would be acceptable to both sides.

Posted on Tue, 10 December 2002 at 17:10

#18

Sabotage wrote:

Hmmm…
I reckon that the countries that go in under the UN’s control need to be places like Sweden. Countries that are not directly involved.
Britain, France, US etc probably just cause more problems.
Of course it all depends if states like Sweden wish to get involved, but they’re in the UN so that’s a start.
I believe that the Swiss actually “guard” the Vatican, so perhaps they could look after the new Jerusalem in my proposal (which some of you guys think may work). That would be the start point, then expand from there.

All we need do now is solve perpetual motion and we’re away. :-)

Posted on Wed, 11 December 2002 at 14:30

#19

Citizen Erased (confused again) wrote:

Sabotage wrote:

I believe that the Swiss actually “guard” the Vatican, so perhaps they could look after the new Jerusalem in my proposal (which some of you guys think may work).

Would you really trust a bunch of secretive bankers with another city state of major importance to global religion? They’ll be after Mecca next!

Sweden, China and all the other countries of a non-biased nature woud, I suspect, be unwilling to foot the bill as a result of not having a large amount of revenue deriving from Israel - but that could just be my cynicism.

Posted on Wed, 11 December 2002 at 14:35

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