Wall of Mouths

No, but last night I dreamt I saw you on a bus and gave you a load of packets of Parma Violets. If it turns out to be a premonition could I have them back please?

Stu is reading the God Delusion at the moment so I have dipped into it, but if I’m honest I can’t really see the point of reading books that set out with an agenda. I don’t need evidence that there is no God - because I already have complete and unwavering faith in the fact that there is no God. And I think I’d probably get bored quite quickly unless he had a cracking sense of humour (Richard Dawkins, not God).

I haven’t read any of his books, though I wouldn’t mind checking them out. But I’d read them with caution. Not because I think he’s wrong, necessarily, but that from what I’ve seen he tends towards a sort of fundamentalist atheism.

I’d rather read the books, but I might watch it later, thanks. :)

OK, but “faith” doesn’t really cut it if you want to explain or defend your position to someone in a convincing way…so I would say the book is worth reading as it provides persuasive arguments for the non-existence of god, based on evidence and logic rather than blind “faith”. Maybe you’ve already formulated your own arguments and you feel you don’t need to read anybody else’s? (though with respect I doubt they’re more convincing or coherent than Dawkins’ as he’s a very clever chap).

I’d also say the book is worth reading as it’s not just about the probable non-existence of god, but the pernicious effects of religion in general. Again, you could say you’re fully aware of them anyway, but again I would say his arguments are worth reading as they’re very well expressed.

I noticed that, too. :D

That’s a part of their charm.

mr self destruct wrote:

OK, but “faith” doesn’t really cut it if you want to explain or defend your position to someone in a convincing way…

No, it doesn’t - but then ‘almost all’ the facts don’t cut it as absolute proof of anything, so if your aim is to come out on top in an argument with someone who believes in God then by arguing only the facts you put yourself in a no win situation anyway. There’ll always be a question to which there isn’t currently an accepted scientific answer, and to people who have faith in God that would most likely be seen as “so you can’t prove there is no God?”. Which you can’t, and neither can Richard Dawkin or anyone else - at least at the moment. Until someone can actually create a new Universe to show how it was done then there can be no proof that there isn’t a God - and rather ironically - if a person was to succeed in creating a Universe then technically they would actually be a God. Thus proving nothing very useful at all.

I may well read the book sometime - but if all he’s arguing is that there is no God and no proof of God then I can’t really see the point - I already ‘know’ that. I wouldn’t use the info to argue against the existence of God because it is impossible to argue with anyone who relies on faith as an argument. Therefore my own faith in the non-existence of God is actually rather a good starting point for such a discussion, even if it is somewhat wasted on me as I respect the right of others to believe in God if they so wish. I think it’s archaic and naiive, but some people genuinely find it a comfort, and as we live in such a horrible world I would be the last person to want to attempt to disabuse them of their beliefs.

I don’t suppose those Parma Violets turned up yet?

Why would I want to challenge you if you genuinely believed that from the bottom of your heart? It makes no difference to me at all, you are doing no harm and you obviously get some comfort from it so enjoy!

As for your second point, I recognise that organised religion has caused untold misery to ordinary people throughout the ages - but it’s hardly fair to say that faith in God itself contributes to human suffering. And for a lot of people that faith would seem to alleviate their suffering. It makes absolutely no difference to your life whether other people believe in God or not, unless you are particularly keen to watch the BBC when Songs of Praise is on. You can’t possibly win an argument on the subject and attempting to do so will probably only result in your vict … erm ‘subject’ praying for you to be delivered from evil or something. It’s not worth the bother!

Genuine followers of Islam are as appalled by the actions of extremists as are atheists, agnostics and anybody else - and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. Individuals who follow Islam or Christianity or Buddhism are, in the main, ordinary people living life peacefully and using their right to follow their beliefs. You can’t hold anyone responsible for terrorism in Britain except the terrorists themselves. And George Bush for being such a complete moron and starting it all.

You once said to me in another thread that you had no interest in convincing people of the error of their ways, so I’m interested to know why you feel differently when it comes to religion? Is it because you want people to know that you are right? Or because you think they would be better off abandoning their faith and recognising that there is only one life and they’ve wasted half of it on believing that something/one was looking out for them and offering them hope when really there isn’t any? They both seem like bad reasons to me!

Hold up a bit - you are throwing a whole heap of ideas about here as though they are the same thing! Fundamentalists, admittedly, use religious texts in order to justify their terrible crimes but a) They are in a ridiculously tiny majority and b) most people do not recognise that ‘justification’. You and I don’t, obviously, but nor do the vast majority of Muslims. And Christianity has tons of stuff ‘wrong’ with it, I agree wholeheartedly, but are you suggesting that all Christians are homophobic or that thousands of people who call themselves Christians don’t use contraception and/or have abortions every year? I agree with you that people do (and always have done) terrible things in the name of religion, but those people are never going to read Richard Dawkin and they certainly aren’t going to listen to you. The only people you could possibly have a conversation with regarding the existence or otherwise of God are the people who think your lack of faith is very sad and that perhaps they might be able to save you. Not to think that would imply an inherent lack of faith on their part - and for that reason you couldn’t honestly say that you were persuading anybody worth persuading.

My own aunty is a devoted christian. She doesn’t hate gay people or disapprove of contraception or abortion in most circumstances (she was a nurse and midwife for 25 years and has seen it all). She doesn’t hate anybody or anything. She truly believes that God loves her and everyone else in the world regardless of their creed, colour, religion or politics. On Christmas Day every year she goes to the community centre and serves meals to the elderly, the homeless and anyone else who shows up. She goes to Church every week and her entire social life revolves around helping people in her community. If she were to be stripped of her faith (which would be impossible but that’s another story) then she might as well end it all. If you proved to her there was no God she wouldn’t want to live. It might be naiive, but there are millions of people who do that sort of thing. They are no threat to anyone and they do good things for people and they believe that God will make it all ok in the end, and that we’ll all come back happy into a world with no hatred or crime or hunger or disease. I’m perfectly happy for her to believe all that stuff. n fact I’m glad she does, it keeps her going through whatever life chucks at her. Does it really matter whether it’s true or not if she genuinely believes that it is?

I don’t want anybody to be blown up because of somebody else’s stupidity, but trying to persuade the honest faithful that there’s no such thing as God just isn’t going to prevent that. Your time would be much better spent trying to persuade Britain and America to stop arming the Middle East!

As for your future children, don’t you think that telling people what they may or may not believe would be a far greater threat to your children’s freedom than the risk of some religious war taking place around them?

Incidentally I’m really not trying to wind you up, I’m enjoying the debate :)

For Heaven’s sake, the one night you’re not p**sed and you have to come on here ARGUING with me!!! :mad: :p

I meant that you would be as a god to any intelligent life that might emerge as a result of the beginnings of a new Universe, and a god in the sense of ‘Creator’ rather than in the sense of a maintainer of anything. And as a creator you surely would exist outside of the space time continuum in your baby Universe? Although now that you have said all that I may have to go back to the drawing board. My plans haven’t included a concept of fate, let alone any actual destinies :(

But surely our entire concept of time is defined by the space we occupy - i.e our own Universe?

I’ll check this thread tomorrow so you have chance to sober up! :p *waves*

No! All that we experience occurs within time - a concept requires no space (as it were of a living being for instance) though we as humans may require (even a small) space within with to think of the concept. However in order to think about an experience we require one moment to the next - time!

Time is the mandatory factor that all things occur within. It is the necessary condition of experience.

You should read Kant Critique Of Pure Reason - he explains it far better than I could (prticularly at this moment.

Blah.

Ah but d? I’d say that within whats already been said God would have a certain amount of such qualities - the references are to such texts that do pertain to it.

If the God we’re talking about here was just to be something such as vibration then no, those ideas would not be true as its all much more a case of coming into and then moving out of being - something canin effect, come from nothing etc. But I don’t feel that its not part of the premise here.

I needs me bed! :p